Annie Sloan, the creator of Chalk Paint®, shares her story plus experts on their favorite budget-friendly paint projects. This week on HGTV Obsessed, it’s all about paint! The iconic Annie Sloan chats with host Marianne Canada all about why she invented Chalk Paint® over thirty years ago and how it has become a mainstay in the home improvement space that is often imitated, but never duplicated. Annie talks about the inspiration behind her paint colors and all of the different ways her paint can be used. She shares her key to staying inspired and playful in her everyday life and how to make the time for creative pursuits at any age. Kristin Luna, founder of the non-profit Do More Art, joins the podcast to talk about how paint can transform and uplift communities and how you can campaign for an art mural in your own city or neighborhood. Host of the Affordable Interior Design podcast, Betsy Helmuth, shares her favorite, budget-friendly ways to use paint to update a space and the paint color she’s in love with at the moment. She also shares the proper way to sample paint in a space and solve your paint paralysis. Start your free trial of discovery+: https://www.discoveryplus.com/hgtvobsessed Connect with the podcast: https://www.hgtv.com/shows/hgtv-obsessed-podcast Follow HGTV on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hgtv/ Follow Annie Sloan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anniesloanstagram/ Learn More About Chalk Paint: https://www.anniesloan.com/products/chalk-paint/ Follow Kristin Luna on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lunaticatlarge/ Follow Do More Art on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/muralseverywhere/ Follow Affordable Interior Design on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/affordableinteriordesign/ Listen to Affordable Interior Design Podcast: https://www.affordableinteriordesign.com/podcast
Annie Sloan, the creator of Chalk Paint®, shares her story plus experts on their favorite budget-friendly paint projects. This week on HGTV Obsessed, it’s all about paint! The iconic Annie Sloan chats with host Marianne Canada all about why she invented Chalk Paint® over thirty years ago and how it has become a mainstay in the home improvement space that is often imitated, but never duplicated. Annie talks about the inspiration behind her paint colors and all of the different ways her paint can be used. She shares her key to staying inspired and playful in her everyday life and how to make the time for creative pursuits at any age. Kristin Luna, founder of the non-profit Do More Art, joins the podcast to talk about how paint can transform and uplift communities and how you can campaign for an art mural in your own city or neighborhood. Host of the Affordable Interior Design podcast, Betsy Helmuth, shares her favorite, budget-friendly ways to use paint to update a space and the paint color she’s in love with at the moment. She also shares the proper way to sample paint in a space and solve your paint paralysis.
Start your free trial of discovery+: https://www.discoveryplus.com/hgtvobsessed
Connect with the podcast: https://www.hgtv.com/shows/hgtv-obsessed-podcast
Follow HGTV on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hgtv/
Follow Annie Sloan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anniesloanstagram/
Learn More About Chalk Paint: https://www.anniesloan.com/products/chalk-paint/
Follow Kristin Luna on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lunaticatlarge/
Follow Do More Art on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/muralseverywhere/
Follow Affordable Interior Design on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/affordableinteriordesign/
Listen to Affordable Interior Design Podcast: https://www.affordableinteriordesign.com/podcast
Find episode transcript here: https://hgtv-obsessed.simplecast.com/episodes/the-paint-episode-with-annie-sloan-affordable-paint-projects
[MUSIC PLAYING] MARIANNE CANADA: Hello, and welcome to HGTV Obsessed, your podcast for all things HGTV.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We are talking to one of my favorite people today, the Iconic and Inspiring Annie Sloan. If you are a DIY or an HGTV fan, you may recognize her name because she is the inventor of the incredibly universally beloved chalk paint. But she's also one of the most inspirational people. She shares with us how she remains playful and makes room to be creative in her everyday life.
She is such a treat. She's just one of those people that I met and had an instant connection with. I'm your Host Marianne Canada, executive producer on hgtv.com, lifestyle expert, chalk paint enthusiast, I even painted a refrigerator with chalk paint. I can't wait to delight your ears with Annie Sloan's lovely accent.
SPEAKER: She was such a joy. Marianne, what have you used chalk paint for in the past?
MARIANNE CANADA: I've just talked a lot. In fact, Annie once came to Tennessee and we made videos together. So we all have to put those. We'll put those in the show notes at hgtv.com/podcast so you can witness the true love story that happened between us. We really had such a connection.
I mean, starting with Hugo's Nursery, and he's eight now. I painted a rocking horse and turned it into a sheep. So I painted it with chalk paint and then covered it with sheepskin and it looked like a little sheep. It was so cute. Actually, I think those pictures are on hgtv.com somewhere. So we'll try to find those.
And then most recently, I seriously painted a vintage refrigerator for HGTV Handmade. I painted it pink with Annie Sloan chalk paint, and it's down in my basement. It's the drink fridge for our pool. So I am a true devotee of this product.
SPEAKER: I knew you would have some awesome project but I wasn't expecting like a sheep rocking horse, that's amazing.
MARIANNE CANADA: A sheep rocking horse is a pink refrigerator. I mean, it only goes up from here. In addition to my BFF Annie, I'm also chatting with the founder Do More Art Kristin Luna about the power of paint, transform communities, and then we're going to get you some pro paint advice from Interior Designer and the Host of the Affordable Interior Design podcast Betsy Helmuth.
Today's all about paint you guys. So let's get into it. Let's get into my conversation with Annie Sloan.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Oh, Annie. Annie Sloan, it's so delightful to have you here. You're one of my favorite people on the planet and I feel like this conversation is long overdue.
ANNIE SLOAN: It's been awful, isn't it? Because we met and we got on so well when I came to Tennessee. I just thought it was fantastic. It's all been stopped by COVID. So let's get it going again.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes, we're going to rekindle this relationship. For anyone who doesn't know, I mean, to me I work for HGTV, I work in the interior design space. So I don't know how anyone couldn't know you and your story. But for anyone who doesn't, you created your iconic chalk paint over three decades ago. And I would just love you to give the highlight reel of how this idea came about and what is so special about this paint.
ANNIE SLOAN: Well, first of all, I did it because there wasn't anything out there that I wanted to use. I've been a painter I've been an art school person and one of the things you learn at art school is to think, I suppose, outside the box. That is the thing. And I wasn't deliberately thinking outside the box, but that was what I was doing, in fact because I just thought, I want to paint that. Does everything.
So it's one part with lots and lots of uses. One tin, rather. Or can. I think you call them cans. So one can with lots and lots of uses. I also wanted it to stick to things, I also wanted the colors to be made in a very particular way. So I was thinking about it, I experimented it, I looked at lots of paint. I was looking at paint all over the world. What did people do?
I was very lucky to find someone. Sometimes, if you know what you want, when it comes to you, you recognize it. So I happened to meet a man who knew about a factory and he was in Belgium. And he said, oh, I know somebody. Let's go there. It happened to be a very lovely family-run company and they were really interested in helping and talking.
I was able to work with people who understood my language. They were chemists and I was not. But I knew what I wanted. And that's what you needed. I was wanting a paint that could be thick, it could be thin, it could be used as washes, it could be used flat, it could be used textured, it could be used to dye, it can go on to all surfaces.
And they didn't laugh at me. That was the main thing. So that was what I was off to, really. And that was the beginning of it.
MARIANNE CANADA: I love it. I love a person who when they can't find the thing they want, they just set about to make it themselves.
ANNIE SLOAN: Yeah. It just happened in a way. And I think it's because if you keep making-- you step forward. It's one step at a time, isn't it? Yeah, that was it. It does seem extraordinary to me now. But anyway, I did it. And it's 30 years ago. It's actually 32. It's 1990. So it's coming up for 32 years.
MARIANNE CANADA: How has the paint itself evolved since you first developed it? Or has the recipe pretty much stayed the same?
ANNIE SLOAN: Pretty much stayed the same. I've had to change some things because-- but it's basically the same. It's a bit like changing the different flowers that you might use. If you live in France, you'd use a particular flower, if you lived in Germany, you'd be or in America. So it's just the same stuff because I've made it in several factories now but it's more or less the same.
And it is a unique paint. What has changed is everything around it. So when I brought this out, there was nothing else like it. Now, everybody calls, well, an awful lot of companies out there saying they make chalk paint. No, they don't make chalk paint, not my paint. They make something else. They make a paint that will go onto wood but they don't make a paint which does what I do. That's the truth. I'm not someone who likes to show off too much. And I've learned I must do that.
MARIANNE CANADA: I think you deserve to be able to brag a little bit because I will say, especially, for my work with HGTV Handmade, I have tried, probably, every other kind of chalk paint out there and we always come back to Annie Sloan chalk paint. There's nothing-- there's really nothing like it. And I have tried them all. It's such a unique product and it really does stick to everything.
But also, the colors are so beautiful. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about the colors because I know you are a color person. I know that you really love researching and seeking out, you know, inspiration for new colors. So how do you come up with the new colors for your collection?
ANNIE SLOAN: Well, the color is very, very important. And I think some people are just not that sensitive to it. And so they don't realize the difference between a green or any color with black in it and one that doesn't have black in it. So an artist doesn't, generally, use much black because when you add Black to a color and then you add white to it, you get a grayed color.
So you might have a bright green then you add a black to it and then-- because you think, oh, I want to make it darker. So you add a little bit of black to it and then you might add some white to it. Well, that black and white, forget about the green, the black and white is going to make it gray. And that will be with any color and then it will just be a grayed green. It might be a sensitive thing but it is there.
So for me, I will darken my colors with something like the complimentary. So I'll put other colors in there so it won't gray it. I mean, I think that's so vital. And that's the difference between everybody else's pain. I don't think anybody else does it. Now, the reason people use black in their paints is because black is incredibly cheap. I mean, it's ridiculously cheap. It's like salt. You can add as much salt as you like.
MARIANNE CANADA: That pure pigment.
ANNIE SLOAN: Pure pigment. The other thing is I don't stint on the pigments that I use. They're really good quality pigments. My yellows or whatever colors, they're really good pigments. The other thing is that I do know my art history and I know my background I know artists, and I do know how colors mix together.
And so I do a lot of-- I always have. I mean, and I do an art talk every-- once a month on a Friday. And I do a color talk. So I will talk about red. I talk about red for an hour. I talk about green for an hour. And it's all about the history of these colors. Where they came from and what they are.
And so if you know what it really should be, you bring out its true essence. You see, I get quite excited about it. It's very--
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes.
ANNIE SLOAN: --it is interesting stuff.
MARIANNE CANADA: It is. And speaking of your Instagram, which Annie is a great Instagram follower and we'll make sure to link to all of her social accounts in the show notes. But I know from your Instagram that you recently bought a new-- well, a new to you but not a new, not a new home. A very old Victorian home in Oxfordshire. And you've been documenting the renovation process. And I just have to ask, how is it going so far?
ANNIE SLOAN: Oh, it's the most wonderful thing. So yes, we think it's about 1862 so far. We've just been doing some research. It's was offices before. It was, actually, used by a marriage guidance company. So it was just a lot of-- a web of little offices everywhere. A maze of offices.
I kept thinking, gosh, I hope I've made the right decision. This place, it's probably got nothing. Everything's taken out of it. But we've started to take-- we took the wallpaper off, we took the old wallpaper off and revealed other things underneath. We've replastered, we found new things. And one of the great things we found was, as you said, some wallpaper you said-- you mentioned that in one of my Instagrams.
But I've also found shutters, old shutters which is so exciting. And the floorboards are good, amazing fireplace, a couple of really lovely fireplaces. One with beautiful-- we took the gas fire from in front. And this beautiful blue tiles.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes. Those blue tiles with the marble.
ANNIE SLOAN: Yes.
MARIANNE CANADA: [? Surround. ?]
ANNIE SLOAN: Marble fireplace.
MARIANNE CANADA: I mean, I gasped. I can't believe that was ever covered up.
ANNIE SLOAN: Well, it was an office, you know? Why would you have it? So and it had blue carpet and everything was painted. They are institutional colors. So it's been-- yeah. My gut feeling was that it was OK. We've got some work to do. I can't wait to get back tonight because I'll see a couple of things of the staircase had been blocked in. So that stopped some light coming in.
And so that would have been taken off today. And I can't wait to get home to see what it looks like.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, well, now, I can't wait to see too. It's like a treasure hunt. We'll grab that picture of that incredible fireplace and put it on the show notes that hgtv.com/podcast.
ANNIE SLOAN: But we're excited that it's a house with history as well. And I'm finding out that it used to be called Norfolk Villas, which is very exciting.
MARIANNE CANADA: That's so fun. I love a house with a name. I'm always so inspired by your passion for travel. And with the last year not withstanding, I know that you use travel to really inform your paint collection and the work you do. What are some of your favorite places to travel to get that inspiration? And do you have any special stories about some travel-inspired paint colors? Because a lot of your paint colors are named after places.
ANNIE SLOAN: Yes, they are named after places. And so something like Giovanni is because that is the place where Monet lived. And so beautiful colors. They're absolutely fantastic. And Monet used lots of that beautiful blue. There's lots of other places that I-- like Amsterdam green, I have an Amsterdam green. Because if you go to Amsterdam, one of the most wonderful things about it is that the shutters and doors are this incredible green at such a deep, deep, deep green. And that was historical they made this green.
And you don't see it anywhere else, so that's something. I mean, it can be-- I go to America a lot, and I see a lot of great stuff in America. I love it. So it might be something I see there. It might be something that maybe doesn't make a new color. But it will make a new-- like an actual color but a mix that's how I want to make.
So I can find inspiration anywhere. Just before lockdown, I went to India. Of course, India is just absolutely pumping with color. I don't know if you've been there, but anybody who's been there will just be, yes, amazed. Everywhere there is just incredible pinks, and oranges, and turquoise, and greens. And so that's something that I am still buzzing with.
MARIANNE CANADA: I love how playful you are with your projects and your sense of wonder. How do you keep this curiosity and zest for life? How do you foster that and feed it?
ANNIE SLOAN: I think you have to have a new project all the time. And I have-- at the moment, I'm very excited because I've got my new project, my new house. The house is going to be part of my new business. I've got a new business going on. And I'm very excited by that, and that's what keeps me going. Because I've got plans, I've got reasons to get up in the morning to get, oh, I know what I've got to do today, because this is what's going to happen. I'm like, I can't wait to get home to see what they've done.
I've got these railings outside, and we were going to see if we could get all the paint off them today. So there's always something out there, which is really, really exciting. I have to say during lockdown, I was not a happy bunny. And there were times when I felt really sad, because I couldn't do the projects I wanted to do. It was really frustrating. So I think having projects is really, really important. When people can't, I think that must be when it gets really difficult. And it can be. I know that I would always have a project.
You don't have to have money to do it because obviously, I've got-- bought this house, and I'm doing all sorts of things. But it could be done with anything from-- I go for a walk every day where it used to be a rubbish dump. And on the ground-- it was a Victorian rubbish dump, but the ground is littered with little bits of old plates. And I keep thinking, gosh, you could pick them all up and make a mosaic out of it. How gorgeous that would be. Anyway, I'm digressing. [LAUGHS]
MARIANNE CANADA: No, no. I love it. And now, I have an answer for whenever my husband asks me if I'm ever going to stop starting new projects. I'll say, no, this is what's keeping me-- this is what's keeping me going. It's what's keeping me alive.
ANNIE SLOAN: It is.
MARIANNE CANADA: I did want to ask you. Going back to when you started your paint company-- I know that you were a young mother at the time and kind of looking for a creative outlet, looking for something outside of your identity of being a mom. So I would love for you to give any advice, if you have it, maybe especially for working parents who are struggling to carve out time to be creative, and to try something new, and maybe to take on that new product-- project. What advice would you give to someone who feels like they just can't make it happen?
ANNIE SLOAN: Yeah, it's-- I did it when I was actually-- I started my business when I was just over 40, I was 42. And I think even that surprises me now. I think you've got a lot of energy at 42, you've learned. I had three kids, and I think people have got-- they're amazing in their 40s. I think it's your best age. You seem to have energy. You've lost all your inhibitions-- not all of them, most of them. You always have some.
And the kids are out at school. I think when children are babies and little ones under 5, I think that's incredibly difficult. But I-- actually, my children at that time were aged 10, 7, and 5. And I think that that's a great age because they were out during the day. And I did have that day. And you just have to plan well. I did have other jobs. I was writing books, and planning, basically, and having projects, like I talked about. And the project was to make this business.
And I had a very-- I think the other thing is you need a very supportive husband, and I did. I still do, and he is. I think that's essential. If you don't have a sort of people to help-- it doesn't have to be a husband. It has to be somebody there who will look after the kids when you can't get home, who can do that thing of, yeah, just supporting. That you don't have to always cook, you don't have to always do the washing up. There are other people there to do it when you're very busy.
I did get myself quite-- yeah, in a tea sometimes. Don't expect it's all going to be smooth. It won't be. It definitely won't be. I don't ever think you're too old to do it. Because I know if you're in your late 20s, you probably think, oh, I'd be my 40s. I'd be so old. [LAUGHS]
MARIANNE CANADA: And now I'm in my 40s, and I'm taking this all really to heart, that it really is never too late. And you're right. I think that having some kind of support system is really important as well-- whether it is a partner, or family, or even just a good friend who you can bounce ideas off or they can support you and help you carve out that time, help you find that time. The time is out there. You just have to find it and prioritize it.
Yes, so this is our Paint episode. And we really are talking about the transformative power of paint and how it can really change a space or just a small piece, large and small. What are some of your most memorable paint transformations?
ANNIE SLOAN: I got a lot because it's over a long period of time. I think some of the ones that I've really, really loved and went, wow, that paint really works, was I had a very large piece of furniture in my old house. It was really large. And I loved it, but it was dark and took up a lot of space.
And I just painted it one day in this sort of soft neutral color. And I suddenly went, my god, it's disappeared. It's not there now. It's not huge and dominating. So that was something that really-- that was a long time ago-- that's made me really go, wow, this really works.
And other things have been like just IKEA pieces-- which are really dull and that everybody's got-- and that's been a great thing for me, because I've always like, wow, that's made that unique. So those are the things. Oh, just loads of bits of furniture, which either I bought for-- I don't know-- the equivalent of $2 in a street fair or something, and I've taken home.
And it's looking a bit, ah, just a bit sad. I would often just give it a coat. It doesn't matter what color. It's whatever you've got. You'd give it a coat. And then you go, oh, now I know what to do with it. It's transformed. It looks amazing.
So, yes, those brown bits of wood-- the brown wood is not exciting. And you've got something jolly, and it makes the whole place look great every time. I'm still doing it. I still do it. I paint something and think, that's really better.
MARIANNE CANADA: And you touched on this a little bit earlier when you were talking about creating Chalk Paint. I do think that there are so many unexpected ways you can use Chalk Paint besides just painting furniture or painting the wall. Can you give us a couple of those? Because you mentioned dyeing earlier, I think that's always fascinating to me. You and I did a tie-dye project together.
ANNIE SLOAN: Yes, so tie-dyeing and doing all that thing with fabrics is amazing. I'm actually going to be doing a really-- I'm very excited about this, and I might be able to get you the picture. I did a wall with fabric. So I bought some fabric, a roll of fabric, cheap cotton. And I got two big tables out. And I painted, stained, rubbed, made it sort of messy, and then stenciled on top, and then put and then-- what do you call it-- staple gunned this fabric to the wall.
And it look-- I just love it. I find that really, really exciting to do. It suddenly gives the room such a different look. Fabric is great. Painting metal, any metal thing, there's like brass, horrible brass lamps and stuff like that, that always gets me really excited.
MARIANNE CANADA: It is a fairly foolproof product. We've talked about that. But when it comes to Chalk Paint, what is the number one mistake most people make?
ANNIE SLOAN: I think using my paint, they think it's going to be the same as every other paint. And they think, oh, I know this paint. So they do the wrong things. They try to over brush. They think they have to keep brush, keep brushing, keep brushing.
And you really don't do that. It's a quick and easy-- I told you that I started my business when my children were young. The idea was that I could get everything done in a day so that I would whisk my children to school, come back, start painting, and finish it off, would wax it afterwards, put it back in the room, and then I'd go and collect my kids. So the idea was that it would be a quick, quick thing to do.
So people sometimes say, oh, so I-- oh, they sand first. They don't have to sand. They don't have to prime, so they do all that. But then the next thing they do is then they take ages and ages to paint everything. No, it should be done quickly. I don't mean slap haphazardly, not badly done. But you do-- it's not a slow thing. You don't have to wait. You can wax it immediately. And don't over brush it. Those are the things. It's a different paint.
MARIANNE CANADA: It is. It's a different-- it is a different product, for sure. I know a lot of people-- I am friends with them. I work with them-- who are paralyzed by picking paint colors. They're paralyzed by making that decision. Do you have any advice for someone who just doesn't really even know where to start?
ANNIE SLOAN: I know. It's really-- I feel very-- I feel very-- I was going to say I feel sorry for them because really, the joy of it is gone. I would just say, just do it and don't overthink. Don't agonize. With paint, you can paint it. If you don't like it, do it again. Get another color. It's not going to be the end of the world. And it's just paint. No one will die.
MARIANNE CANADA: There you go. I think that is a perfect, perfect sentiment to end on. It's just paint. No one will die. It's so true. Annie, you just never cease to amaze and entertain me. If everyone wants to follow along and see what you're up to next, where can we follow you on social media?
ANNIE SLOAN: Well, @AnnieSloanHome on Facebook and Instagram. And on Instagram, I'm also on my personal page, which is @AnnieSloanStagram. If you can follow me there, there's going to be a great big reveal soon to show you my new project.
MARIANNE CANADA: I know, I'm so excited. She's told me a secret, and I'm a good-- I'm a better secret keeper I think than you because you told me immediately. [LAUGHS] So I'm really excited about that, too. So we'll make sure to share--
ANNIE SLOAN: And there's loads and loads of stuff on YouTube as well, Annie Sloan channel. So there's lots and lots of stuff there. And our website's got loads of stuff.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes, and we'll also-- we'll also share the videos that Annie and I did together for HGTV Handmade because that was a really good time.
ANNIE SLOAN: Yes. And if I ever get back to America again, once COVID's all over, maybe we can work together again. That would be so cool.
MARIANNE CANADA: You can plan on it. All right. Thank you so much, Annie. I hope you'll come back because I think that we could talk for several more hours.
ANNIE SLOAN: Thank you very much, Marianne. It's absolutely wonderful to talk to you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MARIANNE CANADA: I love Annie Sloan. What a breath of fresh air. I could listen to her talk all day, and I just-- I just can't wait. I'm going to go. I'm putting it on my vision board, go hang with Annie Sloan in England or France. I would take either. But we're just getting started. We have even more on paint with our next guest. And she has this amazing take on the way paint can transform public spaces and impact communities. So here's my conversation with writer, journalist, and founder of Do More Art, Kristin Luna.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Kristin, it's so great to talk to you. For everybody listening, I feel like I've internet-known Kristin for possibly like since the beginning of the internet.
KRISTIN LUNA: Yes, very well possible.
MARIANNE CANADA: Well-- so Kristin's here because she's the founder-- she's one of the founders of Do More Art, a nonprofit dedicated to enriching communities through public art. And I'm just so fascinated by the work you and your husband are doing. Can you tell us a bit more about it?
KRISTIN LUNA: Our nonprofit is DMA events, which stands for Do More Art. And it was kind of an accident that we stumbled into this work because my background is, as a journalist. I've been working in the media world for 20 years. I'm a UT grad.
I love my work covering communities who are doing great things across America for magazines, and newspapers, and blogs. And my husband had a background as a painting contractor. So he has worked in various trades for over 25 years. And then he went back to journalism school later, which is how we met.
And we moved back to Tennessee about 10 years ago from California and saw that a lot of communities were experiencing the boarded-up windows syndrome, where they had great bones in their towns and no resources or know-how to kind of fix them up, and drive more interest in tourism and foot traffic to their communities. So we came up with the framework for a program for the town of Manchester, where we were living at the time, to create a mural trail as a way to fix up buildings while also giving people something to do and a reason to come to Manchester.
We provided all of the necessary information for the city. And then they just kind of sat on it for two years and never did anything because most cities in the South, too, are volunteer boards, and no one's getting paid for this work. So they have their day job. So I completely understand it.
So after two years of them not doing anything with this work we've done, Scott said, why don't we just go out and commission our own mural? And I said, OK, but how are we going to pay with-- pay for that? And where are we going to do it? And he just started knocking on doors on the square in Manchester and found a building owner who was willing to host a piece of art. We also offered to paint his entire building for free. And he said, well--
MARIANNE CANADA: Sold.
KRISTIN LUNA: --sold. He said, well, Scott, I'd have to be a fool to say no to that. And we did our first piece of art in May of 2018. So we just hit our three-year anniversary last month. And it was just meant to be a one-time ordeal.
And we thought we'd kind of, again, hand it over to someone else. But then we had such a huge community reaction, and people just loved it. And then you have one beautifully built-- painted building on a square with a piece of art, and then suddenly every other building looks like-- ehh.
So three building owners next to Jim Wheeler, whose building hosted this piece of art, they painted their buildings on their own. And then it was the domino effect that we had hoped to create through this program. And through that process, we just kind of continued to do more art.
And we converted to a non-profit the following year, so we could go for bigger projects and grants. And now, we're about 30 murals into the program. And we've done several community events like juried art festivals, free community art fairs, and just haven't stopped.
MARIANNE CANADA: It's amazing, you're truly transforming these communities, which is your tagline-- transforming communities with a coat of paint. And I think it's really inspiring and really does show the transformative power of paint, which is what this episode is all about. And I really-- I know I preach the gospel of our show notes. But everyone, you really need to head to HGTV.com/podcast so you can see some of these murals, because this is something where we are only barely scratching the surface in being able to describe how beautiful they are. They're so beautiful and vibrant.
And you said during this process, you used over 200 gallons of paint. So of course, I want to know, I love numbers. How's it going so far this year? And what do you think the future of public art looks like?
KRISTIN LUNA: So we have already used over 80 gallons this year, and that was just on the first two projects. So yes, as we're scaling up as a nonprofit, we're doing bigger walls, which obviously requires more paint. And we target the kind of busted walls, the walls that really need not just paint but some work. We did one in Sweetwater that had about seven layers on it of stucco brick that was falling off. Like you could touch the wall and it was just crumbling. And we even exposed a layer of river mud, which we think they dredged the local river and used mud on this wall.
And so we never know what we're getting into, but we also-- we spend the time to fix up the wall, just like you would any high end paint job, so that we can properly patch it, seal it, and do whatever's necessary. And so yeah, we used a lot of paint in that process because different surfaces absorb a lot more paint than others. And of course, we seem to always get the ones that need more paint.
So the future of public art, I feel like coming out of this pandemic, everyone is now wanting more public art. And that's great for our artists because a lot of them are booked through next year-- not so great for us because we have to plan so far out to get the artists that we want. But I'm really happy that cities are really seeing the value in the arts.
And what I love about public art is that it's accessible to anyone. You don't have to pay. You don't have to buy a coffee to go in and see it. You don't have to pay for a ticket to a gallery. It's kind of an equalizer when it comes to class, and race, and socioeconomic status.
And so for us, we've been really lucky to work with cities who are willing to fund these pieces for their community. And I just see so many more murals going up than even three years ago when we started. And it makes me really happy. Even if it's not a project of ours, I'm just happy other people are doing it.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes, that's the Do More Art, like that's the foundation of what you guys are doing. And on that note, for someone who's listening or who's been following your work and is really feeling inspired and wants to try to campaign for a mural in their own city or their own community, could you give just like a few tips on where to start? Because I imagine there's a lot of layers of approvals you have to go through and permitting that, and then the prep involved. You've touched on that a bit. But yeah, where do you start?
KRISTIN LUNA: So the most important thing is finding a building owner who is going to be a wall host. And that, honestly, is the hardest part of our process. Even when we think we have something locked in, something will happen like the building next door will sell, and then we need access, and that building owner won't give us access. So finding a building owner who's going to host the art and leave it up-- we ask for a minimum of three-year commitment because it is a lot of time and effort on our part.
And from there, you don't actually need a lot of permits unless you're closing down a sidewalk for painting. And we've only had to do that once in all of our projects in Nashville. And it was a really easy process with the metro codes there. What you need more than anything is a vision, a building owner who's willing to host your vision, and an artist who's willing to trust you. And for us, we have found that it's been really easy to get artists on board with what we're doing because we do allow them creative rein.
We don't say, hey, come to town and paint these 18 things that have to do with our community, because then it's just spaghetti on a wall. It's not really inspiring. No one wants to really see that. And I always think of-- you wouldn't go to Justin Timberlake and say, write me a song. And then tell him the song to write, the notes to play, the lyrics to sing. And it's the same with an artist. You find someone that you really love their work, and you ask them to create you something new.
And so I think that that's the most important thing, is to trust the artist and trust the process and just know that, as an American, we have so many rights when it comes to freedom of expression and speech, thanks to the Constitution. And property owners have a lot of rights, too. So you don't necessarily have to get approval because it's not a sign. It's considered freedom of speech.
And that has been something that's so powerful for us in the work that we do, is that not a lot of people know that. They're like, what do you mean I could just paint my building? And I'm like, it's no different than if you were just to paint your entire building one solid color.
MARIANNE CANADA: There you go. It's all just paint.
KRISTIN LUNA: It is just paint.
MARIANNE CANADA: I had not-- that seems so simple but yeah, it definitely seems like a more complicated process. All right, Kristin. Before we let you go, I know that everyone listening is going to want to follow along with your work. So where can we find you on social and see what you're working on next?
KRISTIN LUNA: Yes. My personal social media is @LunaticAtLarge on all the platforms. And I share a lot of public art there, a lot of our travel work, which is our day jobs. And then if you go to WallsForWomen.com, you can find all the pieces of the Walls for Women, the first class that we did last year as well as the new ones that we're adding this year. And we've got a couple coming up later in the summer that I'm really excited about.
MARIANNE CANADA: Ah, I can't wait to see it. You'll have to come back and show us the next round.
KRISTIN LUNA: I would absolutely love to.
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BRAD: Marianne, quick question. Do you have any street art Instagram photos? And if so, just how basic are they?
MARIANNE CANADA: You're being very grumpy today. I feel like that was very aggressive. Your tone, I need you to take it down a notch. This is an episode about paint. The closest I would say I have come to taking a kind of really popular Instagram street art photo would be the I Love You So Much mural in Austin. But even that was my kid's not me. I don't know. I guess-- I mean, I appreciate public art. But I guess I'm not one to put myself in the picture.
BRAD: OK. I guess I believe you.
MARIANNE CANADA: Wow, so salty. Guys, Brad is tired. He is grumpy.
BRAD: Well, you know what? I saw-- I used to like-- just yesterday, there was a Star Wars mural and you could put yourself in it. And guess who was first in line? Brad.
MARIANNE CANADA: So there you go, everybody has their thing. Everybody has the thing that's going to get them in front of that wall. Well, I am looking forward to continuing this conversation about the power of paint with our next guest. She's the host of the Affordable Interior Design podcast, and she gave us a wealth of information about paint for budget-friendly transformations. So here is my chat with the lovely Betsy Helmuth.
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Betsy, I'm so glad you could join us from your beautiful-- you said this is your shop behind you?
BETSY HELMUTH: Yes, this is our storefront on Main Street in Westchester. And it's delightful, because we're basically in a really adorable fishbowl, watching the town go by. People stop in, they ask questions. So--
MARIANNE CANADA: It's so cute. It's so beautiful. I can definitely see that you are indeed an expert in interior design. And we are so glad to have you here on our episode that's all about the transformative power of paint because I just feel like you probably have a lot of pearls of wisdom to share. So I'd like to start by asking you-- since you are an expert in affordable interior design-- what are some of your favorite affordable ways that paint can transform a space?
BETSY HELMUTH: Well, paint is the biggest visual element in most rooms. It's on all of the walls. And the walls are usually taking up quite a bit of visual space in the space.
So it's really critical that you give it a lot of thought, that you create that canvas on which you're going to overlay the furniture, the artwork, the accessories. If that foundation isn't right, the whole room is going to feel wrong. If that foundation isn't fresh, if you move in and don't paint and keep the paint that was there before, it can look really dirty and make the entire room-- even if the items are new-- look less than pristine.
So it's just such an important first step. So even though it's usually the last step when I'm creating the design plan-- I choose all the furniture, artwork, and everything, and then select that exact paint color-- it's the first actual step I do when I'm actively transforming the space because I don't want to be painting around furniture that's already there if I don't have to. I don't want to get paint on furniture that I've just unwrapped. The way that you actually do it is different than the way I'd actually design it.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you if-- which comes first when you're planning a room? Do you pick the furniture, and then pick a paint color that complements it? Or do you ever design a room around a paint color that you love?
BETSY HELMUTH: I never designed a room around a paint color because there's 60 zillion paint colors and there's only 600 rugs that will fit my client's style and budget. So I'm going to pick the furniture first and pick the paint after. That being said, we may be going in a certain direction. Like my client will say, I really want navy walls. OK. So, navy. But exactly which navy is up for grabs.
Is it going to be Hale Navy? Is it going to be Philipsburg Blue? Is it going to be-- is it going to have a little more green? Is it going to have a little bit more red? These are things that I'm kind of thinking about once I select those pieces. What navy goes best with this drape?
MARIANNE CANADA: You're speaking my language from my Stiffkey Blue office here.
BETSY HELMUTH: Yes. So clients sometimes have that strong idea in mind of the direction they want to go in. But I certainly don't choose the paint color first unless it's already on the walls. So many of my clients do not want to go through the hassle of repainting. Paint is so affordable, as you know. You can get a gallon of paint for as little as $30. But it's the time, it's paying somebody to actually do it, it's the inconvenience of moving all your furniture.
So even though it seems cheap to do, when you think of all the costs of the materials, the labor-- even if you're doing it on your, your own time-- it becomes quite costly.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah. It really-- it adds up and it intimidates some people. I am curious. When in doubt, is there a paint color that you love that you feel like almost always works?
BETSY HELMUTH: So many of my clients think that I'm going to want to put color-- like ROYGBIV color, like a rainbow color on their walls, and I would much rather do a neutral and then be able to change things over time. So when I get sick of the paisley drapes, we'll just take them off the wall, and we've got this nice neutral background. We can do whatever we want. At my own home, I've changed my three colors, my palette, if you will, several times without ever having to change the paint. I take down the drapes. I remove the pillows. And then I can have a totally different vibe with some of the same key elements.
So all that is a long story to say, yes, I do. And they're all three neutrals. They're neutral gray beiges, because I think just gray is oftentimes a little too cool for a lot of spaces.
It doesn't really translate in homes sometimes as well as it translates to an apartment. It's very contingent on the architecture of the space. And so I feel like a gray beige, or greige, has that warmth without feeling too traditional. So I love Gray Owl. It is a little bit deeper on the gray scale, but it is so chameleon-like. On some days, it looks really more gray. On some days, it looks more warm, and beige, and rich.
I love paint colors that are chameleons. So the other one that I love and I have in my living room as well as all the way up my stairs is Pale Oak. It's a lighter version of the Gray Owl because, for me, Gray Owl can get-- it's a big statement to make. And my home doesn't get a ton of natural light, so I went for that lighter version.
And I also like Wind's Breath. Wind's Breath leans more towards the warm side, more towards that creamy kind of color. But it still has the modernity of the gray, that little bit of edge. So you don't feel like you're just in some model home. You feel like you're in a home that has some personality, but that personality is pretty open and welcoming.
MARIANNE CANADA: Like a human paint deck, it's so impressive.
BETSY HELMUTH: And I have literally 17 paint fans back there.
MARIANNE CANADA: You really practice what you preach. So I have a known habit of picking up sample pots of paint. I just-- there's just something about the possibilities of a little sample pot of paint. And I always like to think of things I can use them for if I don't end up painting a room that color. Do you have any-- I'm curious if you have any projects you love that a sample or just a small can of paint will cover?
BETSY HELMUTH: Well, first of all, I want to encourage you and your sample pot collection and in that sort of crafty idea. When I was a new designer with time on my hands, I loved to DIY. I would hand paint murals on clients' walls. I would use small pots to add some kind of stripe or whatever. But not only have I gotten much busier, too busy to be creative with sample pots, but also, the world of interior design in the 16 years I've been in it has changed so much that now it's much easier to buy an affordable piece of art online than it is to even create it myself.
Those opportunities were not available 16 years ago when I was making my clients' art myself. And now, there's just so much available. For the price of a frame, I can get a perfect piece of art. So do I buy sample pots for anything other than sampling colors on walls? No. And do I give my sample pots to the Girl Scouts after I'm done? Yes. So they can have fun, but mama don't have time. I'm running a business. I've got a podcast. I teach people to be interior designers. I've got kids. Nope, I don't do anything fun with those sample pots, not one bit.
MARIANNE CANADA: But that actually is a really good tip, though. You can always donate them. If you've tried it and the paint is not going to work for you, and you're like, what do I do with this now? Donate it to a school or a Girl Scout program. See? That's a perfect-- a perfect use for those tiny little pots. Sometimes, I just-- I don't really-- I don't know what it is. It's something about the smallness.
BETSY HELMUTH: It's only $6. But the other thing I don't like about the sample pot is you can't choose the finish. It's all eggshell all the time. So that's not even good for like touch-up paint for the walls that I typically do. So I find them to just be only one-use situation for me. I only use them to test the paint because I don't typically do eggshell finish. It depends, it depends on the client and the wall. But yeah, they're no good for me after that single use. But my daughter is a Girl Scout, and they do use them.
MARIANNE CANADA: There you go. It's perfect. It seems like there are a million different ways that people recommend you test a paint to see if it will work in your space. Do you have a go-to way to really test if a paint is going to work in a room? And can you give some tips on that? Because I think that people get overwhelmed, and then they end up painting a bunch of swatches, and they don't know what to do. And I feel like surely, you've got a solution for this.
BETSY HELMUTH: Yeah, the paint paralysis is real. And my clients buy like 20 sample pots. And-- well, they're not my clients at that time because boy, oh, boy, do I rein them in by the time they're my clients.
But it can be maddening. And the read on what it looks like and how is it going to look in a larger format after I do a small sample can really play mind games with you. So I highly recommend that you find that color you think is going to be perfect. And you don't find it online because your computer might have a different calibration. You might not be seeing it as it really is.
So you do need to source from a paint fan or a paint chip that you could get at a hardware store or your retailer. So once you think you've got the perfect chip-- I always go one shade lighter and one shade darker-- and not meaning like telling the paint person to mix one shade lighter and darker, like finding a similar color, a totally different color that has its own chip that is one shade lighter and one shade darker, because you never actually know how it's going to come out on that wall.
That's why I feel like the stickers that they're offering or the poster board that's colored in the paint, for me, I wouldn't do a sample that way because the texture of the wall-- whether it's plaster, Sheetrock, brick-- will really impact how you see the paint and how the wall takes the paint. I find it's quite important to put that sample on the wall but never ever, ever would I put on a wall that already has a color. I made that mistake when I was trying to be cheap and trying to cut corners in my own apartment in Manhattan.
My apartment, when I bought it, was lime green. I don't know who lived there. I don't know how they survived. No wonder they were selling it, and no wonder I got it for a great price, by the way. No wonder because it was offensive. So I was going to paint it like a beautiful robin's egg, much like the color behind me right now. I love robin's egg blue with that touch of green. So I got the perfect robin's egg. I'm a designer. I know what I'm doing. I tell my clients to sample but not me. I know what's going on.
Well, I painted directly on the line. And for the first entire wall, it looked purple. And it wasn't because of what was coming through underneath. It was because of the color around it. Because of what I was seeing around the paint as I was applying it, it was informing what I actually saw the color to be. And it wasn't until I'd done the entire wall, with no sides, no lime peeking through on the edge, that I saw it was blue.
MARIANNE CANADA: It's like that thing that went around the internet, where people were like, is this dress black or is it-- and no one could agree. And your eyes and your brain really can play tricks on you. It's true.
BETSY HELMUTH: So the key to avoid that is to create a white palette first. So slap up white, and it's not because the color underneath will come through. More than likely, it will not. Most paint these days are quite thick or you even have primers built in. So it's about getting a big swath of white. So when you're seeing the sample, it's in the context or surrounded by white.
And then I always do the three samples, at least 12 by 12 in terms of inches, so it's at least a foot square. And I do it on two walls that get different types of light because one wall will of course get direct sunlight from a window perhaps, and the other wall is perhaps very far from the sunlight. And that can really give me a sense of what it's going to look like. I wait for it to thoroughly dry, like I leave, go get a cocktail, come back.
And I wait to make sure that I've seen it in morning and night. But then I just decide because you could spend your whole life time going back and forth with the subtleties of paint. I've seen people really go down rabbit holes.
MARIANNE CANADA: Now, I call it FOBO. It's fear of better options, and people just cannot decide because they're just, what if there's a better one out there?
BETSY HELMUTH: It's like online dating and paint picking. There's FOBO.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes, you just-- you got to commit at some point, right? I really could have used this when we were renovating because I did-- a friend of mine told me to do the post-- paint the poster boards. And it was such a pain to paint those poster boards, the various colors, and get multiple coats because it was streaky. And then the paper got damp and wrinkled. And I was just like, this is so dumb. I could have just painted on the walls by now. So lesson learned.
BETSY HELMUTH: And I really feel like the texture greatly influences-- I have Sheetrock walls in here, and I have plaster walls at home. I've used the same color in both spaces. It looks completely different. Of course, the light is somewhat different, too.
But actually, I'm in the same town, facing the same direction with my house and my office-- full disclosure-- so it's quite similar light. Even at similar times of the day, but the two paints look completely different. It could also be the furniture around it. But I truly believe that the texture of the wall, the way it takes the paint, does make a difference.
MARIANNE CANADA: See? There you go. Well, speaking of things that maybe you shouldn't be painting, like poster board, I feel like there's been a trend in the past few years where people are painting everything from countertops to their floors. I'm just curious, as a designer, when do you think it's most appropriate to update with paint? And when should you consider just investing in another solution?
BETSY HELMUTH: I think it's tricky, right? Because of course, if you're renting, these are not options that you could do without losing your deposit and maybe more. So you would never consider doing this if you were renting and if you didn't get approval from your landlord. I can't imagine any of my past landlords would have ever let me paint the countertops or the floors.
You have to have nothing to lose because paint can ruin things and paint can be hard to get off. It's easy to apply and, of course, very affordable. But it's tricky to remove, especially from something like brick or porous tile.
And you need to do so under the guidance of a professional. And I'm not even talking about a designer. I have a paint person at Benjamin Moore that I call whenever I'm trying to paint something tricky, whether it's a shutter that's made of an old material, whether it's some kind of exterior trim, whether it's just something I haven't painted before, I send her the texture.
I tell her everything I know about it. And I let her tell me how I need to prime it. Because if you want it to stick and last, you need to frame it a specific way. How many coats I need to do, what line of paint, what finish-- so I don't presume to be the expert, especially because there's all these amazing innovations in paint.
You think paint is like a static thing that's been around for eons. They are coming up with great new types. So personally, would I paint tile? Maybe if I had an Airbnb, where I owned it, I determine what's going on. I don't mind if it gets ruined or scratched. I've got nothing to lose. And of course, I'm calling my professional. Paint would not be my go-to.
I love tile tattoos. If you haven't looked into that, there's so many options, and they're so affordable. I love peel and stick backsplashes, so look into that. There's, again, a wide range of types and price points. But there's other ways to fix reno issues, and paint usually isn't my first stop.
MARIANNE CANADA: There you go. I have a dear friend, who is a designer, and he loves nothing more than to paint the floors white. And I just always like, this is how you could tell that you don't have children.
BETSY HELMUTH: Well, also, you could see every piece of hair, every piece of lint. I never go to dark with the flooring but also never too light because you can see everything on ebony and navy as well. But I do think there's something to pickling a floor, which is basically diluting that white paint. So it's not perfect. Because trying to get a perfect white floor, perfect black floor, perfect any-color floor, good luck to you. When somebody wears their high heels and if you didn't prime and paint properly, it's over.
Pickling where you can see the wood grain through could be a nice option for somebody who sort of, again, has nothing to lose and wants to try something kind of fun. I have these really old floors that are like large wood planks from 1900s in my office. I would love to pickle them. I rent so it's not going to happen. But they're already in horrible shape. Let me just try it, right? That's the kind of mentality I'd want you to have before you pick up a paintbrush and apply it to your floor.
MARIANNE CANADA: All right. Well, that's a-- clearly, I knew. I knew you would be the perfect person to talk to for this episode because you just clearly have such great expertise. And if you guys want to hear more from Betsy, you should check out her incredible podcast, Affordable Interior design. This is just scratching the surface of what you know. I hope you will come back some time and share more of your knowledge with us.
BETSY HELMUTH: Of course, of course, yes. I love talking design. I do it every day, all day. So I love doing it with you, Marianne. Thanks for having me.
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MARIANNE CANADA: Wow, thank you all for listening to this incredible episode all about the power of paint. I really think this episode had something for everyone. Whether you enjoy street art, whether you're inspired by small business owners, or whether you just need to paint your living room, we hope you enjoyed it. And maybe you'll tackle that paint project of your own that you've been thinking about this weekend.
I want to give a special thanks to our guests-- the lovely Annie Sloan, Kristin Luna, and Betsy Helmuth-- for their expertise. As usual, you can learn more about all of our guests by checking out our show notes at HGTV.com/podcast. And you guys, you want to head over to the show notes this week because we have got all the beautiful eye-candy, all those murals. You need to check it out. Don't forget to follow HGTV Obsessed wherever you listen to podcast, so you never miss an episode.
And one last thing, we are taking a break next week. But we will be back on August 12, with-- I mean, you guys, if you've ever stayed up way too late scrolling on your phone, looking at, say, some cheap old houses, well, this may be the episode for you. I'll see you then.
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