Cas Aarssen and Wendell Holland, hosts of Hot Mess House, share their favorite tips for getting a handle on household clutter. Cas talks about how to find the unique organizing style that works for you and Wendell shares ingenious furniture and storage solutions that can help streamline a cluttered space without having refurnish the whole room. Then, host of The Sustainable Minimalists Podcast, Stephanie Sefarian, gives her thoughts on how to declutter with an eye toward sustainability, and how to avoid excess consumerism. Finally, the Tidy Dad himself, Tyler Moore, shares his story living with his family of four in a 700 square-foot apartment and how he not only decluttered his space, but his entire life, to live with “just enough.”
Cas Aarssen and Wendell Holland, hosts of Hot Mess House, share their favorite tips for getting a handle on household clutter. Cas talks about how to find the unique organizing style that works for you and Wendell shares ingenious furniture and storage solutions that can help streamline a cluttered space without having to buy out The Container Store. Then, host of The Sustainable Minimalists Podcast, Stephanie Sefarian, gives her thoughts on how to declutter with an eye toward sustainability, and how to avoid excess consumerism. Finally, the Tidy Dad himself, Tyler Moore, shares his story living with his family of four in a 700 square-foot apartment and how he not only decluttered his space, but his entire life, to live with “just enough.”
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Learn More About The Tidy Dad: https://thetidydad.com/
Find episode transcript here: https://hgtv-obsessed.simplecast.com/episodes/finding-your-organizing-style-decluttering-your-life
[MUSIC PLAYING] MARIANNE CANADA: Hello and welcome to HGTV Obsessed, your podcast for all things HGTV, and today, is our organizing episode. I mean, we are going to get your life right, you guys. We have experts on organizations, simplifying and sustainable living to talk all about decluttering your world.
Before this episode, I honestly didn't realize there are all these different organizing styles and there are people who can help you figure out which one you are so you can create easy systems to sort out your spaces. That work for you. We're actually going to make you want to get organized by the end of this.
I'm your Host Marianne Canada, executive producer and hgtv.com lifestyle expert. And when I'm not watching HGTV, honestly, you can probably find me re-folding my kid's T-shirt drawer for the 74th time because KonMari just doesn't really click with a seven-year-old it turns out. Well, we have a jam-packed episode this week and I really don't want to keep you guys from all of this great information.
So we're going to dive in with our first guests-- the dynamic duo and host of HGTV's brand new show, Hot Mess House, Cas Aarssen, and Wendell Holland. They come to the aid of helpless homeowners in need of some serious organization. I mean, you guys, these before and afters might be the most dramatic in HGTV history. Then we're also speaking with the host of the Sustainable Minimalist podcast Stephanie Seferian and the Tidy Dad himself, Tyler Moore.
I wasn't kidding when I said, we have packed a lot into this, but it's all neatly folded accordion style standing up in your drawer unlike my kid's T-shirts. I'm so excited for you guys to hear from everyone. So let's dive right in with our first guest, Cas and Wendell.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Welcome to HGTV Obsessed.
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Thanks for having us. I'm excited to be here. I am HGTV Obsessed, so this is exciting.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, you're in the right place, right? I'm so excited to see you guys together on this show. It just made me really happy to watch the first episode. So before I digress, you guys are both the stars of the HGTV series Hot Mess House and I think that everyone can really resonate with this show because you're helping struggling homeowners organize their lives. Can you guys tell us a bit more about the show?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: I'm just so proud of this show because it's not just a makeover show, it is like a life-changing show. And so many people struggle with clutter. I struggled with clutter for so long and so it's so relatable. These are real families with real clutter and they're making real changes themselves. They're decluttering, their organizing, and this is a change that doesn't matter if they move, it doesn't matter where they go in their life, that they can carry with them.
And just to see the pride, like, Wendell, how proud are they of themselves? Which is something that I always cry. I do. I'm such a crybaby, but it's a really emotional show.
WENDELL HOLLAND: It is a beautiful thing. I'm kind of a sensitive person as well. So like if I see my girl Cas shedding some tears and I might get a little misty over here and I got to pull it together real quick. But I think it's incredible because so often, we see these homeowners that Cas will go in there and help them declutter and then we'll come back for a post-declutter walkthrough and they'll say, oh, Cas, let me show you this room or let me show you this area. We did this and this. They have so much momentum.
So it truly is life-changing. And for me, I love it because me and Cas will put our heads together to try to figure out some cool storage system or some different way that we can help these homeowners achieve their best storage solution. And then through the process, I'm in my head like man, I need to do this at home. I need to go home and do this.
So like I come back home on the weekends and like, I'm doing the same. So it's life-changing for the clients but also I know it's changing my life as well.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah. I have to say, after I watched the first episode, I really-- I mean, my poor husband, I just started making a list. I consider myself a relatively tidy person but there's definitely room for improvement. And something I really love about the show too is these are serious cases. You're not pulling any punches. These are not people with a messy closet or an overflowing junk drawer. These are spaces in need of some serious help.
And you can see it in people's eyes and the way they carry themselves. The weight that all of this stuff is putting on them. Cas, I want to address right off the bat that you're also the person behind the Clutterbug brand. You have a super successful podcast that I am obsessed with. You've got an amazing YouTube channel. I think what I love most about your story is that you are a self-proclaimed slob and yet you managed to become an influencer in the organizing space. How? How does that happen?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: I'm a recovering super slob and it's a daily thing. I still have these natural tendencies to put things down rather than put things away. But I struggled for the first 30 years of my life feeling like I was just born messy. And when I truly found that I organized differently and I started making changes, I was so excited about it. I told every friend, every family member.
My husband was like, please, stop talking about organizing. And so he bought me this little flip phone and he said there's this new thing out there called YouTube, that's how old I am. And he said, why don't you make a video talking about how excited you are and post it online? And that's exactly what I did.
I mean, when I would organize something and it would stay organized, I felt a joy that I can't describe. It really is a passion and I just wanted to talk about it with anyone who would listen. And that grew into a following and a podcast and even books. All of this really did come from the joy that I feel with organizing.
MARIANNE CANADA: It's so wonderful. And something I do love about the show is-- and something that, I think, that makes it very unique for a show about organizing is we have our organizing expert in Cas and then you're paired with Wendell who, it seems, can build literally anything to solve any kind of storage problem-- whether it's opening up a space underneath stairs, to build a special play area for kids, or utilizing wall space for a down desk.
And Wendell, you're also no stranger to HGTV. I mean, we've seen you building furniture for hometown takeover and you're the owner of your own successful custom furniture brand. How do you partner with Cas to help these families? Where does that process start when you're trying to create these solutions for their homes?
WENDELL HOLLAND: Again, it starts with me and Cas both being these empathetic people that can really relate to who we're dealing with and understanding that these clients, they have a hurdle, they have an obstacle in front of them and it's something that together, we don't want to make fun of what it is. We want to help-- truly help them have breakthroughs.
When you have these two empathetic people-- Cas and myself that can connect with people, then it's just a matter of us getting in the space and finding solutions. Brainstorming, putting our heads together, thinking outside the box, thinking about different storage solutions that you might not always see. I think we make magic.
I think it's a great juxtaposition because Cas and I are completely different individuals, but when we come together, we can make anything happen with these clients of ours.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah, you guys really complement each other. You do. It's like such a great partnership. You can really tell that you guys work so well together. I have to ask Wendell, before you came into this show, how organized are you? Was this new territory for you?
WENDELL HOLLAND: OK. So I will say, I'm a relatively organized guy, right? But this show, I've been traveling a lot over the last few months. And so I will say, my level of organization like from 0 to 10, I'm usually around at 8, I'm pretty good, I'm pretty with it. But now that I'm just like touch and go back home and I'm throwing clothes around, I've got to say, I'm like 6, 7 now. So I know that when we say--
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, no. That's bad.
WENDELL HOLLAND: --I know that when I get some real time at home, I'm going to be like back to level 8, maybe 9. And I'll report back.
MARIANNE CANADA: I mean, it's tough. The busier you get, the harder it is to stay on top of things, which is why I want to talk about Cas, your Ted Talk. So I watched your Ted Talk in preparation for this interview and I mean, I found myself tearing up. And apparently, we're just going to cry in this whole podcast, the three of us.
I don't know. It really resonated with me. I think like you, I was a really disorganized kid. I just always felt really flustered. I never felt on top of my schoolwork. I always had the backpack or the trapper keeper that was like bursting with papers. I guess, I just never really thought about there being different organization styles for every person. Can you dive into that a little bit more?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Yeah. So it became apparent to me really young that I didn't organize like other people and I just assumed that was messiness. My desk was always messy, my papers were always in disarray, I was always hunting and looking for things. And even as a young adult, it was phones, keys, my other matching shoe. Every day, it was like looking for something lost. And I thought that was normal and I thought that was something that I had to live with forever.
When I finally discovered, my husband organized one way and I saw him doing it in this really micro way and it came naturally to him. So when he paid a bill, he would file it in credit cards, or electricity, or gas, whereas I would just toss everything in a drawer. And I thought, he's organized, I'm not.
But then I started developing this more macro approach, I call it, a less organized approach and I could find things. And I wasn't missing things anymore. And my house was staying tidy all the time. And I was like, hold up, it may not look like traditional organization, but I'm organized. And so I thought that there was two organizing styles-- a micro and a macro, and I thought it was just like some sort of genius.
And I started helping friends and family and clients, if they're are micro or macro and eventually, I sort of realized there isn't two, there's four. Because some people like me and Wendell we're hidden organizers. We prefer to have things out of sight. Behind closed doors or in solid containers.
And there are people who are visual organizers. Who want to see their things. So you are either a micro-- a detailed organizer, or a macro-- a big picture organizer, or you're a-- and a visual or a hidden organizer. And it's that combination that makes your organizing style.
MARIANNE CANADA: I think it's really clever how you utilize that process of defining ones or organizing style. On the show, on Hot Mess House, you don't just come in and look at a space and give everyone a one size fits all solution. You really talk to them and you really find out. And sometimes, oftentimes, within a couple, there's two very different organizing styles within the house which, I think, I mean, I don't want to turn this into like marriage counseling.
But I think that that's a big thing to unpack too because you can do a lot of the work to try to get organized. But if your partner or the person you share your home with isn't on the same page, that can be a challenge. How do you utilize this process on the show? How do you help people figure that out?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: What we really look at is, I take a look at what is working. So what is an area of your home that you're able to maintain that feels effortless? Is it visual? Is it hidden? Is it micro? Is macro? And I also look how they naturally pile. So are you a person who has neat little piles everywhere in categories or is everything mixed together in one bigger category?
And that really gives me a sense of how they're naturally doing things because organizing isn't one size fits all and it doesn't matter what it looks like, it matters how it functions because the whole goal of being organized is that you have a home that's easier to maintain forever. That feels effortless. So you're not tidying all the time. And that's something you can really only achieve if you're working with your natural organizing style.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah. I highly recommend that everybody checks out clutterbug.me and you can take Cas's quiz about figuring out what your organizational style is. I'm a ladybug, which feels right. It felt really right.
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Yeah. Wendell and I are ladybugs too. Team ladybug over here.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, my gosh. Team ladybug. We just want to put things away, I don't want to see anything. And then I also cry when I watch television. That's me. Wendell, I did want to circle back to you on furniture and organizing systems because I think that a lot of people get really overwhelmed and think they need to go and spend a ton of money to overhaul a space, to make it work better for them.
And something I love about your work is you show some simple and less expensive solutions to that don't involve going and buying out the container store. What are some things that families should consider when they are trying to decide what furniture or systems would work best in their space?
WENDELL HOLLAND: When I was thinking about this question, four words came to mind. So I wrote it down as the four Fs-- form, flow, focal point, and functionality. When I'm thinking of designing a piece or designing a space even, obviously, the form or how it looks, I want it to be aesthetically pleasing to the eye. I want whatever this piece is or this space is to look great.
As far as flow goes, in your space, you don't want something huge in the middle of the room. You want to make sure that there's good movement and that you can get around and do what you need to do in that space. Focal point, I try to always think of a focal point in the space, whether it is this thing that we're building for the space or whether it's a piece of art or a fireplace or something. Some area that you can then work around.
And then functionality. Of course, you don't want something that is beautiful in there or whatever or takes up some amount of space. That doesn't really work well for you. So I try to use, I guess, the four Fs. Maybe, I could find a cooler name for it or Cas, maybe, you can help me with that but those are the things that-- some of the things that I consider.
MARIANNE CANADA: I mean, that makes total sense. Is there a most common piece of furniture or thing that you create to simplify a family's life, say? Is there something that is your go-to time and time again?
WENDELL HOLLAND: I have a few go-tos like things that my company we build, like beds. We build lots of beds. We do beds with storage, beds with taller head boards and lights in them or anything like that. But there's something that's so simple that you don't always think about. Like a coffee table in the middle of your space. That's like central to the room or to the space.
You can use it to eat off of, you can use it to write notes on, you can put some candles and whatnot on, or you can have storage, you can have we did on one of the episodes. You can do something really cool and creative storage-wise that this coffee table or what looks like a coffee table can convert into something totally different for the family to enjoy. Sometimes, it's something as simple as a coffee table that can just be multifunctional.
MARIANNE CANADA: Everybody loves that like exciting surprised feature and a piece of furniture. Something I also love about the show, especially, in this time where open concept is so popular is you guys would put some walls back into a room. And I see Cas is very excited. But yeah, like I'm thinking about that basement where you're actually like, this big space is actually not doing you any favors because you don't have that definition. Cas, I feel like you want to weigh in on this.
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Yeah. I'm not a person who's like, this is trendy, let's do this. I'm like how is this going to make your life easier and better? And if you have a big open space and you see everything in your hidden organizer and you don't want to look at your exercise bike or treadmill, it makes sense to put up a wall. Or if you're desperate for a home office but you have a giant bowling alley basement family room, why not put up walls and create a private space?
So I think we have to stop looking at what's in style and start looking at how do we make this space functional for our family today?
MARIANNE CANADA: It makes total sense to me. So Cas, while I've got you, I think better than anyone that organizing can feel very overwhelming for some people. And it is very emotional. People literally don't know where to start and then it just gets worse, right? The problem just gets worse and worse and worse until you feel literally that you're being buried and stuff.
What are some good ways to start? What are some approachable ways to take that dive and get started on getting control of the clutter in your life?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: The truth is nobody likes to hear what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say it, anyways. It's getting things out. When people say, I need to get organized, their instinct is to take a big pile and sort it into 30 small piles. And then you're tired and the only thing you have is a mess that's now spread out bigger and like all over the place.
And so you always start by just looking around your home and saying, what am I not using and what would I not buy again? If you didn't own it and you wouldn't buy it again, why is it in your house? And this is so hard. It's so hard because it's anxiety-based. When it comes to decluttering, we look at everything for what it costs, what it could be someday, maybe it's a gift someone gave you or it feels sentimental.
And all this anxiety we're feeling, all of these thoughts-- so instead of facing our fear, we put it off into the corner, quite literally, to deal with another day. And those corners add up to huge piles which overrun our home. And so this is the very first step. And if you're feeling a lot of anxiety, start with trash. Start with expired food, expired medications.
Look for clothing that hasn't fit in the last three, four sizes. I mean, get rid of the easy stuff so you can build that decluttering muscle and realize, hey, this actually isn't scary. This feels amazing and then you start getting that urge to purge, which we've seen with every one of these homeowners. It starts out so hard. And now when Wendell and I go back, they're like, look at this room that's not even on the show that we declared. I mean, it's incredible.
MARIANNE CANADA: It is. It's addictive. You just have to make yourself start. Well, I touched on this a little bit earlier when I swore this wasn't going to turn into counseling, but I would love both of you to weigh in a little bit on how you encourage-- whether it's your family, or a partner, or a roommate. How you encourage your family to get on board with these organizational systems because Cas, you talk about this a lot on your YouTube.
It's never fun and it's not sustainable to be the only one in your home invested in organization. So how can you get the whole household on board?
WENDELL HOLLAND: I's say, start small. Sometimes, it's something-- it's like peeling off a Band-Aid. Once you do this little thing like start with a closet or something minimal. Start with a desk. And once you see that you have decluttering and you have been able to shed and toss some of the things that you don't need, that Band-Aid has been ripped off, sometimes it's like it's a shock at first but then it's like, man, this is the healing process.
You start going into that office of yours and seeing this beautiful desk and you're like, man, maybe now I can move out and do the closet or maybe I can do my whole office. And so once you've peeled that Band-Aid off and that scar is healing, wonderful things can then happen. So my advice to my family, everybody that's in my close circle is just start small with something that's manageable to knock off that checklist.
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Yeah. For me, I always tell my clients, you really have to know other people's styles and not try to have it your way or the highway. I think that's what a lot of-- especially, I'm just going to say it. Sometimes, it's the mom who takes ownership right of organizing the space. Sometimes it's not, but a lot of the times it is and they get so frustrated like, why aren't you putting things back in this place that I designed?
So sometimes, it's just having awareness that there are different ways that people organize and coming up with compromises so that it works for everyone. And I know for myself, I really had to stop the nagging, stop pointing fingers, and focus on my stuff first. And really look inward and say, I'm doing this for me because it makes me happy and not be the martyr of my family.
And before I knew it, looking around, my family saw the change and they came on board. I led with a carrot, not a stick. Instead of forcing the family to come along with me on this organizing journey, I showed them how good it felt to have an organized space and they naturally followed along.
MARIANNE CANADA: That's amazing. Lead with a carrot, not a stick. I lead with a label maker. My kids are obsessed with the label maker and I find that if I let them print the labels, then they get more excited about putting things where they go. It's a little insight into what our house is like. This has been so great talking to you guys. We cannot let you leave without you weighing in on one of our favorite segments, Defend the Trend.
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This week we are talking about color coordinated organizing. So this is grouping everything from your pantry items to your bookshelves by color. And particularly, in rainbow order. This seems to be sweeping, at least, the Instagrammable home organizing world. Cas has her head in her hands. I don't know. This is going to be great. What are your thoughts on this colorful system? Does it work or is it just colorful clutter?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Oh, gosh. You know what? Here's the thing. Everybody organizes differently. So for some people, if you want to put your books in rainbow colors and if you want your clothing in rainbow colors and that makes you happy, then do that. That's amazing. But if you would rather your books be in alphabetical order or you would rather them be-- like I do, I have them by genre, then do that.
And I think it's unrealistic to say, everything needs to be in rainbow color. I do not think you should go to the grocery store and buy your food based on the color of the packaging. Like, that seems ridonculous to me. Do I think it's beautiful? Yes. Do I think it's staging? Yes. Do I think it's sustainable and functional and realistic for a family? No. I think it looks beautiful on Instagram and I look at it and, I mean, I did my fridge like that.
It lasted all of a week. And then you got leftover pizza. What are you going to do? You got to-- you move things around. But for me, if you love that and you love the look of it and you want to maintain that, then absolutely that works for you. But I don't want anyone to feel pressure if that doesn't work for them.
MARIANNE CANADA: Here, here. Wendell is wearing a pretty colorful shirt. Wendell, where do you fall on the rainbow organizing trend?
WENDELL HOLLAND: I'm somebody that loves a lot of color. What can I say? I had-- until I moved into this house, I was one of those rainbow book organizers. And I have quite the library. So it's not the easiest for finding a book but it looks awesome and it's calming, I guess, to the eye when you're walking past it.
But I will say that organizing your closet, maybe your shirts or your clothes with the rainbow style, that kind of helps sometimes. That is helpful. So as trendy as it is doesn't always work. There are times when it can work and there-- it has its moments, I'd say.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, there you go. That was a very diplomatic answer from both of you. We basically landed on, it if you want to, don't if you don't. That's perfect. Well, before we let you guys go, I want you to share with everyone where we can follow you both on social media and online. And when and where can we watch Hot Mess House because I'm telling you, this is going to be everyone's new favorite show.
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Oh, that's so awesome. Thank you. You can find me anywhere. I'm Clutterbug. So search Clutterbug. You can find my podcast or YouTube or Instagram just by searching Clutterbug.
WENDELL HOLLAND: And you can find me. I am Wendell Holland on all the social medias and my company is Beve Unlimited, that's B-E-V-E Unlimited on social medias.
MARIANNE CANADA: Awesome. And when and where can we watch Hot Mess House?
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: It airs Thursday, June 17 at 8:00 PM Eastern on HGTV.
MARIANNE CANADA: Well, Cas and Wendell, this was just such a delight. We're so glad that we could kick off our first ever organizing episode with two of the best.
WENDELL HOLLAND: Thank you so much Marianne.
CASSANDRA AARSSEN: Thank you so much for having us.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MARIANNE CANADA: I have to say, we really we debated what trend we were going to defend. I have a real love-hate relationship with this whole rainbow organizing trend. I do have a loose, they're not even rainbow order necessarily, but I do have my books stacked together by color. They're not in like ROYGBIV because I do find that visually pleasing.
I also, though, have a lot of non-book things on my bookshelves. I have a lot of the art and pottery and other touch keys and whatever. I do feel a lot of it is just silly. It's just not my style. But we've already discussed, I'm a ladybug. So I like closed storage. And even within my pantry, I like things in bins. I just want a labeled bin that says, nuts and dried fruit. I don't need rainbow chromatically organized little containers of my pistachios. They can shell in their bag.
MADELEINE: See, and I do not like labels.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, Madeleine.
MADELEINE: I would rather just be able to see that it's nuts, or dry grains, or pasta, or whatever it is. But I don't know. I don't know why I don't like the labels. Maybe because a lot of them are in a weird font, I don't know. But I will hide clear containers behind a closed door.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah. See, I like an opaque because it looks messy. I open my-- and I have bins-- bins and drawers and they're labeled. And you know what's inside them but it's all white. I don't know what that says about me but I like opaque bins with labels.
MADELEINE: OK, it just sounds like you don't like visual clutter. Like you need it to be very homogeneous until you actually have to access the item.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes, it's very calming to me. And I'm hardly a minimalist. I mean, anyone that comes to my house knows. Like, I like stuff and I like beautiful things but, I don't know. In a situation where I'm working, which in the kitchen, I love to cook so I, definitely, consider that a workspace, I want it to be very tidy. Brad has been super quiet.
BRAD: OK. Let me-- I have things to say, I have things to confess. First of all, I'm a butterfly. I just took the test, I'm a butterfly.
MARIANNE CANADA: Of course you're a beautiful butterfly.
BRAD: Second of all, my confession is, until this podcast, I had no idea people would color codenize, they would put-- OK, I had no idea. I had no idea people would put color stuff on their shelves like their books for me, think, why? That stresses me out. Like do people really not put books by author or books in the series like I don't understand it.
MADELEINE: It's definitely all for aesthetics. I think the idea came about because it was similar to organizing your closet by color.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah.
MADELEINE: Like it's easier for your brain to process it in that order or it's more soothing for your brain instead of all of the colors being intermixed. No shade, but I think those shelves are, probably, for people who don't reach for books all that much.
MARIANNE CANADA: OK. Shots fired. I just want to explain. The bookshelves I am talking about in my living room are not books I read. Or they're books I have read, but they are there to be beautiful or, occasionally, they're like a reference book, I have a lot of gardening books. I read a ton but I read on my Kindle.
I am like pretty much 100% e-books. If I buy a book, it's because it's beautiful and I want to own it. But if I'm just reading like the latest beach read, I do not need a physical copy of that book. I would rather just read it on my Kindle and not have to store a bunch of less aesthetically pleasing paperbacks. So I am very much a big reader. You know, I read 52 books last year, I was very proud of myself, but I don't actively read a lot of the books that I physically own. I contain levels. I'm very complex, Brad.
BRAD: Look, we have a jam packed episode. This is the last thing I'll say. But this is a window into my soul. I have four bookshelves, right? I have a science fiction bookshelf, I have a fantasy bookshelf, I have a literary bookshelf, and have a Stephen King bookshelf. And that is how I keep my things organized.
MARIANNE CANADA: Just a whole Stephen King bookshelf?
BRAD: Yeah.
MARIANNE CANADA: I have seven different books about flower arranging. We all have our thing. Before we end up needing couples therapy for this podcast team, I want to get into our next guest because she is a popular author and podcast host behind the Sustainable Minimalist giving us her thoughts on organization through a lens of sustainability. Here is my chat with Stephanie Seferian.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right. Stephanie, I'm so glad to have you on here. This episode is all about organizing. And we're talking about different angles of organizing because it is such a rich subject. We're talking about organizing styles and systems, we're talking about simplifying. But with you, since you host the very popular podcast Sustainable Minimalists, I really want to talk about organizing and decluttering from a sustainability angle.
But first, I do really want to talk about your podcast because it is so good. What inspired you to start podcasting?
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: Well, Marianne, that's a long story. I'm going to try and annotate it for you and your listeners. I basically found myself interested in minimalism after I had my first child. I was never a minimalist in my previous life before. Having a child, I wasn't so much interested in eco friendliness either.
But something about incorporating an infant and all of her stuff into my little 850 square foot apartment really-- that process really made me start to look at stuff in a critical light because as a new mom, I didn't have a lot of free time, I didn't have a lot of mental space.
And so for me, minimalism, getting rid of the excess in a responsible way was a really quick and easy way for me to increase my amounts of free time, decrease my stress and anxiety, and also decrease my mental load.
MARIANNE CANADA: This seems to be a common theme for a lot of people that there's so much that's not in your control when you become a new parent. So I think it makes sense that you look at your space and you think, I need to make this work better for me and my mental health. So it sounds like you believe that decluttering and organizing is inherently a practice in minimalism.
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: Yes, I do. However, I do think it's really important to parse out those terms, right? Like decluttering is about getting rid of the excess. The stuff that you, perhaps, shouldn't have brought into your house in the first place that you don't need, that you don't love. Organizing is finding systems, creating systems to organize the stuff that you've decided to keep. And then tidying is that daily maintenance where we're putting away in those organizing systems all that stuff that we're keeping.
And so all three-- decluttering, organizing, and tidying, they're all important to minimalism. But for me, decluttering is just really that first step. It's that transformative experience that enables us as we're going through our closets or as we're cleaning out our basements to really look critically at the items that we've purchased, we've, perhaps, spent hard earned money on that we let into our living space and kept around for, perhaps, no great reason.
And so for me, decluttering, its purpose is to shed light on our wants versus our needs so that we no longer find ourselves on that hamster wheel where buying then decluttering what we just bought, then going to the store and buying some more and then decluttering that in a few months time.
MARIANNE CANADA: Something I find really interesting and something I was, actually, talking about with my team before we jumped on was how the idea of minimalism is so personal and it's all relative. My mother, she loves stuff. And she has great taste and she has a lot of it. And she really loves to fill her house up and fill her space up with things that she loves.
And she considers me her minimalist child and if you came into my house, you would look around and be like, who would consider you a minimalist? I mean, I also like my stuff. I just have less of it and I'm a little more particular about how much I have out and on display.
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: You bring to light a really important point, which is that minimalism is subjective. It's different for every person. And so I feel as though minimalism, when somebody new to the term hears the term, they think that it's about no stuff. Maybe even no furniture. Barebones, white walls, nothing on the walls. And that can certainly be your version of minimalism if that's what you're striving for.
However, I have stuff in my house. I have a lot of stuff in my house. For me, minimalism is at its root. It's about becoming intentional about the stuff that we choose to surround ourselves with.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah. I think that's so important because it can be a really triggering word for some people. People have it in their head that you're either a minimalist or you're a hoarder. And there's a lot of gray area in between those two words. So in a recent episode of your podcast, you talk about this idea of loss aversion and how that can really be this obstacle to simplifying your life.
I wanted to know if you have any advice for people listening who might just have that pit in their stomach when they're even thinking about it because it is, it's so emotional.
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: For people who experience loss aversion know that we all feel it at some point or another, right? Loss aversion is that phenomenon when we have that feeling like, oh, we don't want to let go of this because we own it. And we feel it even if the item in question is one that we don't need, don't use, perhaps, don't even like.
What I find so interesting about the concept of loss aversion is that it's really embedded in our DNA. So if you feel it and if you feel it often, don't feel bad about it. Back when humans were hunter gatherers, the accumulation of stuff helped to ensure our survival. And so that feeling of dread when we go to declutter it's, essentially, the trajectory of our evolution as a species.
Telling us, hey, stop. Wait one minute. And the problem here is that most of us in these days, our accumulation of stuff has nothing to do with us surviving. We're not hunter-gatherers anymore. And so for those of your listeners listening right now who experience loss aversion all the darn time, I would suggest that instead of thinking about what you're losing, instead, flip the script and think about what you could gain by letting go. Some ideas that come up to the top of my head.
If you sell the item, you're going to gain a little bit of money. If you donate the item or items, you're going to be supporting someone in your community. You're going to gain free time because more stuff means more to maintain, clean, organize. You're going to gain a calmer baseline because if you're like me, less stuff will mean less stress and anxiety, especially, if you're the person in your household who tends to be in charge of the maintenance which, again, would be me in my house.
You're going to reduce visual clutter and visual overstimulation. You're going to reduce family tension, this is a huge one. And then the final thing that you gain when you combat that loss aversion is your family gets the best of you. They get you at your best instead of I would say, your stressed.
MARIANNE CANADA: It is true. I mean, I think that there is such a sense of calmness and peace that comes from feeling like your surrounding is in order. And that can really translate into your relationships, whether it's with your husband or your family. My kids, they are better behaved when the house is clean.
I mean, I think it just gives them a sense of safety and order knowing that everything is in its place and out of sight. I think that it's a really interesting and important angle that you take with your work. It's not just about minimalism, it's not just about tidying, but you also have the sustainability element to it.
And I think that now more than ever, people are really getting on board and being more thoughtful with their approach. What are some ways-- because it can be overwhelming that people can start small with trying to live more sustainably?
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: That's a great question. Yes, I will say that for me, minimalism and eco-friendly living are profoundly similar and that both lifestyles are rooted in reduction. And if you take a couple steps towards a less is more lifestyle, you are helping the planet-- whether that was your intention or not. I like to say I'm a zero to Oprah type of woman. I like to do all the things all the time.
But I would, definitely, suggest against that, especially, when it comes to starting to think about becoming a little bit more eco-friendly. I'm a huge fan of incrementalism in this regard. What that means, essentially, is take one little tiny baby step in the direction of eco-friendly living, tiny. And try it on for size to something that is so small that it's not going to create extra work for you, it's not going to increase your burden, it's not going to suck your free time.
And try something on until it feels like second nature until you're doing it like the best of them. That's when you know it's time to add on another eco-friendly habit. So these habits can be as simple as hanging up your laundry if you use the dryer. Maybe you start hanging up a load here or there.
Maybe it's brewing your coffee at home. Learning how to brew your perfect cup at home instead of heading to-- by me, it's Dunkin' Donuts, but Starbucks or Peet's, wherever you go. It could mean going meat free one day a week or even just one meal a week if you're a big meat eater.
It could be joining your local buy nothing group and obtaining what you need from your neighbors instead of heading to Amazon. So those are some of my ideas. The main point is to go real darn slow because if you do too much too soon like I did, you may find yourself burnt out and give up before you start.
MARIANNE CANADA: I literally just jotted down zero to Oprah because never has a term spoken to me. So clearly, but I think that's great advice. I think it's really important for people to set themselves up for success. And sometimes, if you think you have to do everything at once, you're not setting yourself up for success. Like no one can-- even Oprah got there one rung at a time. No one can be everything at once.
I know that the idea of buying products might seem a little bit antithetical to minimalism and sustainability. But I do think that you have an interesting perspective on conscious consumerism. Can you share some of your favorite sustainable products that we could look out for?
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: That's a really interesting question because for me, conscious consumerism is about not pushing products but instead, doing your research yourself and finding what works best for you. So I don't really feel comfortable giving some products or giving some brands. I will say, however, that in general, a sustainable product is one that's not a single use item, it's not made from plastic, it's not meant to be thrown in the trash.
And companies who are dedicated to sustainability tend to be really darn transparent about it. They showed it from the rooftops, they have detailed sustainability goals listed on their website, and I will also say too that in 2021, greenwashing is absolutely rampant. It is like a minefield out there. And so when in doubt, just shoot me an email. I will make a conscious consumer out of you.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, that's great. I think that it's important. Put your money where your mouth is and also do the work, do your research. You can't just take everything at face value if you really want to make that change in your life. Well, Stephanie, I feel like you are just a wealth of knowledge. For those who want to learn more about your work, where can we find you on social media? And tell us, again, where we can listen to your podcast.
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: Well, thank you so much for having me. This was an absolute blast. My podcast is called The Sustainable Minimalist and it can be found wherever you listen to podcasts. And I am not so active on social media, but I would say, I'm most active, I post when I have something to say, on Instagram. And my handle is [? mommyminimalist. ?]
MARIANNE CANADA: I love that. Well, I think that we'll have to have you back on again because if I've learned anything, this is an endless subject in terms of what you can learn. So thank you so much.
STEPHANIE SEFERIAN: Thank you. This was fun.
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MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, my gosh. I just have to say that zero to Oprah is like my new favorite saying.
SPEAKER: Zero to Oprah?
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes.
SPEAKER: I never heard that. I love it.
MARIANNE CANADA: I mean Stephanie really brought something to me and now I feel like that should be my new life goal. I'm just going to go zero to Oprah. Our next guest also knows a thing or two about small space living and simplifying their life. We have Tyler Moore, otherwise known as the Tidy Dad on the podcast to talk about his journey to simplifying his life and how he manages to live in a 700 square foot apartment with his family of five. I just love Tyler. I know you guys will too.
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Tyler, I feel like this has been such a long time coming.
TYLER MOORE: Yeah. No, it's so great to talk with you. It's nothing like a pandemic just interrupting all plans.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes, truly. So for everyone listening, Tyler and I were talking, I guess, that was last February.
TYLER MOORE: Yeah.
MARIANNE CANADA: It was just right before everything just really went pear shaped and we were like, oh, how can we work together? And we were looking to the year ahead and then it was just like survival mode.
TYLER MOORE: Yes.
MARIANNE CANADA: I'm so glad, though, that we finally are talking. So Tyler, you are the person behind thetidydad.com, a place where you share your every day tidy living. You know, what inspired you to start this endeavor?
TYLER MOORE: Yeah. So I'd like to share with people that I am a dad who's been on a journey to tidy up my life. I've always been a tidy person. I've always enjoyed having things in order. But my untidiness really unraveled about 3 and 1/2 years ago when our second daughter was about nine months old.
And up until that point, I had really checked all of the boxes. I had been following this straight lined career trajectory. I had done everything that I had wanted to do, but yet I still felt empty and I felt very stressed and anxious and overwhelmed. And so I really had to step back and reassess and get things back in order.
And so tidy that is really an expression of my personal journey with tidying up all of the raw emotions that come with being an adult and being a parent while also the realities of, what does it look like to organize a space? What does it look like to organize a home so that-- in my case, we have three small girls at home, six years old and under.
How can we design a space that really allows them to thrive and grow and develop while also having our own personal needs met? So Tidy Dad really does exist on two levels. There's the mental health aspects, there's the personal sort of journey, but there's also the tangible tidying aspects that I feel like people want a real picture of what does it look like to have some semblance of organization in our lives?
MARIANNE CANADA: Yeah. It is interesting. I think that in the past few years, in particular, there's really been a lot more focus on that mental health connection to tidiness and to your space and how those really are hand in hand. I mean, I know I cannot function. I can't concentrate if I feel like my space is messy and out of control it makes me feel out of control.
It's just been an interesting evolution. And on your website, you do. You talk about stepping back from your job in administration and you really made the choice to get back to your true love of teaching and you say something that just-- I mean, I felt this deeply. You say, just enough is a powerful way to live. And that just-- it gave me chills. Can you dive into that a little bit more?
TYLER MOORE: Yeah, just enough, as I say, it really is a powerful way to live. Just enough to me is the idea of setting boundaries. And you're setting boundaries with physical possessions. Your time, how you want to expend energy. And just enough, once you're able to define for yourself, what does just enough mean?
It helps you set boundaries and say no to things. And so for me, I have a 14-inch closet in our apartment.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, my gosh.
TYLER MOORE: I have just enough clothing. I am not a minimalist. But I have just enough. So I don't need to shop all the time, I don't feel that need to acquire more possessions because I have just enough. Particularly, with organizing, people, a lot of times say, well, I love my shoe collection or I really love-- you know, I have this hobby that I don't want to get rid of those things.
And what I say is, well, you don't have to get rid of those things because if your love is your shoe collection, how can you then set boundaries around other things and say, well, you know what? I do have just enough pants. I don't need the entire wall of pants. Five pairs is just enough to get me through.
So it's another one of those philosophies, I think, that exists on a couple different levels. There's the theoretical and philosophical but there's also the tangible, it's about setting boundaries with personal possessions. With your time, with your energy, with your profession.
MARIANNE CANADA: I do. I think there is a misconception that simplifying means you have to get rid of everything. And that ties in perfectly to my next question. You know, Marie Kondo has been a major inspiration to you and to so many. I read her book. I ate it up. And it is. It's that idea of an item sparking joy in order to keep it in your home.
No one is saying you have to get rid of everything. We're just saying, you should only have what you love and what really serves you. I mean, is that something you're able to instill even in your small children? Because that is-- it's a tough one with my kids.
TYLER MOORE: Yeah. And I think that with sparking joy, I think in my case and the case of my wife, we had to practice it first before we were able to explain to our girls. And I feel like the spark joy aspect was really about honing our decision making abilities. And what I loved about the philosophy is that, if you can from a granular level, explain to yourself why you like one pair of pants over another, can apply that decision making ability to so many other aspects.
And so with our girls, particularly, with toys. Kids have an innate attachment to every toy that comes into their space. Like I'll take the example of a baby doll. What is it that you really love about that baby doll? And the girls have been able to say things like, its eyes open and close and it's able to sit up. But these other baby dolls they all just sort of lay flat and they don't really do anything.
That is an example of sparking joy because it has a feature that your other things don't want. And so it may mean you don't need 10 baby dolls that lay down flat. You just need the one. So we're trying-- again, on a very small level, to instill some of these concepts into their everyday life in our practices as a family.
MARIANNE CANADA: Well, and you really practice what you preach. You and your wife and your three children under six, which is just a lot in and of itself, you live in a 700 square foot apartment in New York City. And I think to a lot of people, that seems impossible. But clearly, you're living-- out there living your best life. What are some ways you guys make that work?
TYLER MOORE: I feel like one, is that we've really embraced this idea of small space living and we try to look at it as, what does living in a small space give us as a family? And there are a few things. We're forced to get outside and explore the wonderful city that we live. In our home, we've really worked to establish boundaries on our space.
And so one of the things that we've done in order to make our home livable for our family of five is my wife and I, we have the smaller bedroom and our three daughters share the larger bedroom in the apartment. That's not uncommon for many families in New York City or in large Metropolitan areas with small spaces, but it's something that's sort of counter-cultural.
The idea of giving the larger space to the kids. But for us, we wanted them to have more floor space to play. But we've had to get really strategic about the furniture that we've brought into our space. And our furniture has to be able to grow and adapt and change to meet our needs.
And so it really is about designing systems that allow us to best utilize our space, but it does go back to us really embracing and looking at the benefits of what does it look like to live in a small space? Because it's faster to clean. There's no space for stuff to hide and accumulate.
It does feel freeing in some ways. Just to live in this little apartment. And our girls are 6, 4, and 1. So it'll be interesting to see how they grow. But they also don't know any different. And so whenever we leave, they walk into homes and they look around and it's like, oh, my gosh. Look at this. Look at all these bedrooms. They were always so confused by the number of doors in homes.
And their grandparents have basements. And the idea of being able to jump on a floor and not disturb the neighbors below them, it's just such a funny concept. But they're like, what is a basement? What do you do down here? Look at all this space. So it's always fun to take them out of that environment and hear their reactions and thoughts on space. It's fascinating.
MARIANNE CANADA: Oh, my gosh. I love that. What is a basement? Well, and I lived in New York several years ago and now I live in the South. We have a house that is, by my standards, like pretty large. We have all the closets, all the-- we have a full attic, we have a full basement, we have all the closets. I mean, and you're right. It's great. It's great to have all that space, but it does make it a little too easy to just stash things out of sight that maybe you just don't actually need. I have to stay on top of that myself.
TYLER MOORE: Yeah. No, it's so important.
MARIANNE CANADA: So I'm sure that the second people find out that you have a blog that you have a brand all about staying tidy. You must get asked a lot of questions. I think right now, in particular, people are very interested and fascinated by the concept of tidying up. What are some of the questions you get asked the most when it comes to tidying and simplifying?
TYLER MOORE: I mean, one is why, as a man, I have taken on this work or have I always been interested? And then the flip side is, doesn't your wife want to tidy too? And it's interesting to take on the stereotypes of what does it mean to care for your home and also your family. But the response that I always give is that I'm an equal member of the household.
And so my wife and I, it's our responsibility to work on this together in order to make this a home that's able to support our girls to thrive. So that's one. There's always that-- the name Tidy Dad is always so interesting to people just because it brings up so many questions. People also ask if our home is ever messy.
And tidy people's homes do get messy. But I will say, the difference is that everything does have a place. So dealing with the mess is a little bit less stressful and that we, at least, know where everything goes. But I like to say, yes, our home is messy. And then people always love to ask if I'm always so calm. They're like, [INAUDIBLE], you always look so calm and everything looks like it's in such order. And the answer is, no, I'm not always calm. No, everything is not always in order.
But like I said, that there are systems in place to make things work. Because I feel like so often and going back to the relationship that I have with my wife, so often in people's homes, there's one person that really holds all of the intellectual space for where everything goes within the home or one person knows where are the kids shoes? Where are the tools stored? Where do we put the groceries when they're unloaded?
And when one person really bears the mental load of having all of that knowledge, that's when it becomes overwhelming and frustrating. And so with whatever system we establish, we really try-- my wife and I try to do the work together so that we both understand it. But then we're trying to think about which aspects of those systems can we transfer to our girls so our girls start to independently take on some of this work.
So for example, right by the door in our apartment, we have hooks that are on the level of our girls so that they can put their coats on and when we go back to school again, they can store their backpacks. We have a little cabinet that has their gloves, their hats, their things to go to the park.
It needs to be on their level so that they're able to access it. In their wardrobes, their hanging rod is right at their height level. So they're able to go in and pick and choose what they want to wear and put things back. So we're trying to give over some of that independence to them because it's truly overwhelming when one person is responsible for all of the systems and no one else really understands how those systems work.
MARIANNE CANADA: Yes. And you know, what a gift you're giving them-- both in showing them what a healthy supportive equal relationship looks like, but also showing them that gender roles they can evolve. I think that's really important. You know, my kids have a stay-at-home dad. And mom is the one that works full time and dad is the one that picks them up from school and does a lot of the household cleaning and everything.
And I think it's-- I just think it's really important. It sets a healthy precedent for kids to see that we're all members of the household. We're all members of our own small community inside this home. And everybody has their part that they need to do.
TYLER MOORE: Yeah.
MARIANNE CANADA: Tyler, this is so-- I feel like we could go on and on and on, and I definitely would love to have you back again because I feel like you have such a unique perspective and so much knowledge and information to share. If people want to follow along on your tiding journey, where can we find you on social media and online?
TYLER MOORE: Yeah, so on Instagram I am @tidydad. And then you can always find me thetidydad.com. What I like to tell people is that we're all on our own tidying journey. We're all there in some sort of process, but there are always really simple ways that we can tidy up.
And whether it is taking that junk drawer that's in the kitchen and cleaning it out or whether it's making sure that you have a landing spot for your keys or wallet or phone when you walk in the door. That they're always that we can find small ways to just make life a little bit better and a little bit more efficient and, hopefully, a little bit more joyful.
MARIANNE CANADA: I love that. Truer words were never spoken. Thank you so much.
TYLER MOORE: Thanks.
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MARIANNE CANADA: I really hope this episode sparked joy in all of you. I loved all of the valuable takeaways and I, honestly, I know I am on the cusp of another purge myself. I've already told my husband, we need to completely empty the garage this weekend because Cas told me that was where I needed to start with my organizing journey. My garage is like my secret shame.
Anyway, a special Thanks to all of our guests today. Cas Aarssen and Wendell Holland of Hot Mess House which premieres on June 17 at 8:00 PM Eastern, Stephanie Seferian of The Sustainable Minimalist, and the Tidy Dad himself Tyler Moore. As always, can learn more about all of our guests by checking out our show notes at hgtv.com/podcast and, you guys know what I'm going to say.
If you love today's episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to rate and review HGTV Obsessed. Give us five stars. Tell us what you learned in this episode because I thought I was a pretty tidy person but my mind is blown. And don't forget to follow HGTV Obsessed wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode. We'll see you all next Thursday.
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